 |  634055 | Jan 10, 2007 8:42pm | | Which Study Bible would you reccomend and for what purpose? |
|
| 
Sponsor |  Ewtn2000 | Feb 3, 2007 10:55am | | I have found that The Navarre Bible produce a great study and commentary Bible. You can get a complete compact version of the entire bible, but I would recommend the individual break down study guides that are available. |
|
| | |
|
Sponsor | | Ewtn2000 | Feb 28, 2007 7:18am | I have great reservations with the Watchtower's translation of the Bible. Are you saying thay have a great translation with the fewest mistakes?
Maybe we should start with the basic question of who Jesus Christ is?
Matt. 16:15"Who do you say that I am?" Is He the Son of God, God Himself in the flesh? Or are we to believe what the Watchtower says that in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, that Jesus is only an archangel of God, named Michael?
Let's not talk about the most common objection of the Watchtower bible.
John 1:1-2 "1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God."
A better translation is:"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. This is a big difference if you profess to be Christian. Do we honor Jesus who is God or do we honor Jesus who is only an angel? Honoring someone other than God is a problem. |
|
| | | lizzy | Feb 28, 2007 8:49am | Jesus is Gods Son..who delivered and reinforced the word of God..thus he was and is the word..we honor both we come to God through Jesus as he is the human face of God but not God..he prayed to his father in the hour of his decent.
Matthew 16:16,17
16 In answer Simon Peter said: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 In response Jesus said to him: "Happy you are, Simon son of JoŽnah, because flesh and blood did not reveal [it] to you, but my Father who is in the heavens did.
watchtower.org/e/bible/index.htm [watchtower.org/e/bible/index.htm]
1 Thessalonians 4:16
16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.
Ewtn2000 please can you provide a reference to the artical you mention in the watchtower regarding Micheal?
Matthew 6:5-13
5 "Also, when YOU pray, YOU must not be as the hypocrites; because they like to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the broad ways to be visible to men. Truly I say to YOU, They are having their reward in full.
6 You, however, when you pray, go into your private room and, after shutting your door, pray to your Father who is in secret; then your Father who looks on in secret will repay you.
7 But when praying, do not say the same things over and over again, just as the people of the nations do, for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words.
8 So, do not make yourselves like them, for God YOUR Father knows what things YOU are needing before ever YOU ask him.
9 "YOU must pray, then, this way:
"`Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.
10 Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.
11 Give us today our bread for this day;
12 thanking the Father who rendered YOU suitable for YOUR participation in the inheritance of the holy ones in the light.
watchtower.org/bible/mt/chapter_006.htm [watchtower.org/bible/mt/chapter_006.htm];
citation#bk9
Colossians 1:13-16
13 He delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love,
14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;
16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.
watchtower.org/bible/col/chapter_001.htm [watchtower.org/bible/col/chapter_001.htm];
citation#bk15
John 1:1-3
1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
2 This one was in [the] beginning with God.
3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.
watchtower.org/e/bible/index.htm [watchtower.org/e/bible/index.htm]
God is a title, which reinforces ours and Jesus`s Fathers name..Jesus is the word..in his spirit form he was with God in the begining..at Gods right hand how he is described in revelations.
Psalms 83:18
18 That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,
You alone are the Most High over all the earth.
watchtower.org/bible/ps/chapter_083.htm [watchtower.org/bible/ps/chapter_083.htm];
citation#bk18
WHO IS
"the Only True God"?
watchtower.org/library/g/2005/4/22/article_02.htm [watchtower.org/library/g/2005/4/22/article_02.htm] |
|
|
Sponsor | | Ewtn2000 | Feb 28, 2007 9:50am | So Jesus is not God, there is no trinity? That is not what the history of Christianity has taught. Jesus was always seen as God in the Flesh. Truly human and truly God. Why do we honor an angel and if Jesus is only an angel, why do we go through Him only and not through the other angels, i.e. Rafael and Gabrael? If you look at the old translation of the bible, you will see that John 1:1 was always taught as the Word being God, not "a god". I would also say that the denial of the resurrection of Jesus is also something that is wrong. This all comes from the poor translation of the Bible by Johannes Greber. From what I understand, his translations came from a spiritual experience and hence his translation took priority over actual scripture. Yet we are warned of that in scripture itself.(1 John 4:1-3)
Jesus is God, He is not a meer profit, but God in the Flesh who came down to earth to redeem man. But unlike Moses, who's God's work was done, Jesus Himself preform miracles, as only God can. Moses, Elijah, Elisha, the apostles Peter and Paul, all perform miracle with the power of God going through them, but Jesus was different. Remember, only God can do this. Moses, Elijah, Elisha, the apostles Peter and Paul, all called on God to do these miracles. Out of the 36 miracles performed by Jesus, read the scriptures carefully and you will see that Jesus never recieved help from God. Why, because He is God.
Again, the translation of John 1:1 is in error from the original text. God is not a title, God is the creator. I admit, we all have other gods, but there is only one true God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
I find the article "The Struggle for a Bible in Modern Greek" to be of great interest. Besides the fact that most of the facts are incorrect, the old arguement of why the Christian Church burned the bibles comes back to surface. I haven't seen any documentation for any of the opinion posted, but let me just set that record straight. Yes the Catholic Church burned hundreds of bibles, but that was because they where full of errors not because she didn't want her people to read it. If that was true, no translation would of made it to the public, and if you remember your history, each church had a bible for any and all to read.
Now to answer your question. Did not the Watchtower publish a two volume book called Insight on the Scriptures? Volume 2, Page 393'Scriptural evidence indicates that the name Michael applied to God's Son before he left heaven to become Jesus Christ and also after his return. Michael is the only one said to be "the archangel," meaning "chief angel," or "principal angel." The term occurs in the Bible only in the singular.'
Also in the book "Aid to Bible Understanding" (1969) on page 920 "Since actual conception took place, it appears that Jehovah God caused an ovum or egg in Mary's womb to become fertile, accomplishing this by the transfer of the life of his first born son (Michael) from the spirit realm to the earth"
One last thing, let's get back to John 1:1. If this verse isn't mistranslated, then in John 1:6 the Watchtower made a mistake, the same construction is found in the Greek, yet the Watchtower bible has in their translation 'god' not 'a god'. They are not being consistent, Why?
Also, consider ThomasŽ testimony in John 20:28 "My lord and my God." Literally this is "the lord of me and the God of me." Why not use 'a' here? |
|
| | | lizzy | Feb 28, 2007 3:33pm | Ewtn2000 6-
"So Jesus is not God, there is no trinity? That is not what the history of Christianity has taught." ...the history of christianity IS the bible.
Jesus is Gods only Son his many Angels each have their specific place and job..as satan has his demons.
God is a title..Jehovah is the soverign Almighty God of the heavens earth and abys..Jesus is the soverign earthly king.
1 John 1: referes to Jesus christ as the one from the Father..the Son that was him..and sprang fourth from him as any son was part of their father before they were born. He was then made manifest when he was born in the flesh on earth.
concerning the word of life,
2 (yes, the life was made manifest, and we have seen and are bearing witness and reporting to YOU the everlasting life which was with the Father and was made manifest to us.
watchtower.org/e/bible/index.htm [watchtower.org/e/bible/index.htm]
But currently its this other very powerful fallen angel that is ruling this "world"..[ realm ]which referes to the present system.
John 12:30-33
"An angel has spoken to him."
30 In answer Jesus said: "This voice has occurred, not for my sake, but for YOUR sakes.
31 Now there is a judging of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32 And yet I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw men of all sorts to me."
33 This he was really saying to signify what sort of death he was about to die.
watchtower.org/bible/joh/chapter_012.htm [watchtower.org/bible/joh/chapter_012.htm];
citation#bk31
John 14:22-36
22 Judas, not Is·carŽi·ot, said to him: "Lord, what has happened that you intend to show yourself plainly to us and not to the world?"
23 In answer Jesus said to him: "If anyone loves me, he will observe my word, and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make our abode with him.
24 He that does not love me does not observe my words; and the word that YOU are hearing is not mine, but belongs to the Father who sent me.
25 "While remaining with YOU I have spoken these things to YOU.
26 But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach YOU all things and bring back to YOUR minds all the things I told YOU.
27 I leave YOU peace, I give YOU my peace. I do not give it to YOU the way that the world gives it.
Do not let YOUR hearts be troubled nor let them shrink for fear.
28 YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.
29 So now I have told YOU before it occurs, in order that, when it does occur, YOU may believe.
30 I shall not speak much with YOU anymore, for the ruler of the world is coming.
And he has no hold on me,
31 but, in order for the world to know that I love the Father, even as the Father has given me commandment [to do], so I am doing. Get up, let us go from here.
34 Therefore the crowd answered him: "We heard from the Law that the Christ remains forever; and how is it you say that the Son of man must be lifted up?
Who is this Son of man?"
35 Jesus therefore said to them: "The light will be among YOU a little while longer. Walk while YOU have the light, so that darkness does not overpower YOU;
and he that walks in the darkness does not know where he is going.
36 While YOU have the light, exercise faith in the light, in order to become sons of light."
watchtower.org/bible/joh/chapter_014.htm [watchtower.org/bible/joh/chapter_014.htm];
citation#bk30
How Did the Trinity Doctrine Develop?
Constantine's Role at Nicaea
watchtower.org/library/ti/article_04.htm [watchtower.org/library/ti/article_04.htm] |
|
|
Sponsor | | Ewtn2000 | Feb 28, 2007 5:22pm | Lizzy, one quick question. I noticed that every question you answer is through the writtings of the Watchtower. Besides that do you have the actual documents of what they say is true. Do you read other accounts of history? Or do you just simply take that Watchtower's word for their version of history?
Let's stick with the statement of John 1:1. I have asked a question that has not been answered. In two places, besides John 1:1, the same Greek words are used for "God". But only in John 1:1 does the Watchtower translation use "a god" while it leaves the others to their original text. Explain why John 1:6 and John 20:28 do not state the same "a god"? After all if it is the same in Greek, it should be translated the same in English.
Now lets look at John 14. The Father is greater because He is in glory, Jesus isn't (yet). Also the Father is the recipient of the sacrifice of Christ, so He is greater in the economy of salvation, but NOT greater in nature. Make a reference to Isaiah 53:3 and Hebrews 1:4. In Isaiah and Hebrew the Greek word is "kreiton" which means "better"(in a quality sense). You don't see that in John 14. In John 14 you see "meizon" which equals "greater" (talking in a position). Note the Father is never said to be better in quality or nature to Jesus. You need to use some critical thinking on these matters and not just take their word.
Through the Bible, Jesus knows that people know that worship should only be given to God, yet in Acts 14:15; 10:26; Rev. 19:10; 29:9 (to name of few) Jesus knows what they are thinking and never says other wise to them. He never clears up this misunderstanding in John 5:18. He goes on (in verses 19-20 of John 5) to claim equality with God in performing His works; then in verse 21 He claims equality in His power to raise the dead (only God had authority to raise the dead - see Deuteronomy 32:9; 1 Samuel 2:6; and Psalm 68:20). If Jesus was not God, yet He gave the impression that He was, He would lead people away from God to worship someone that never should be worshipped. He would be doing the works of the devil. Isaiah 14:14. If He was doing the devils works, then He could not be the Son of God. Nor sent from God....
John 5:22-23Nor does the Father judge anyone, but he has given all judgment to his Son, so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. Jesus is claiming equality in His position of honour with the almighty God.
Let me give you another example of the poor translation of the Watchtower. Colossians 2:9 "theotetos" is the genitive of "theotes", which means divinity or deity, but not divine quality (which is what the New World Translation has). Divine quality, is rather "theiotes" , as in Romans 1:20. Yet you probably know this.
The link to the trinity from the Watchtower is misleading. I will end with some original quotes from a document from 110 AD, from Ignatius of Antioch
"Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).
"For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God's plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2).
"[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is" (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]).
So if the trinity came into existance later around the fourth century, you need to explain why the early Christians already believed that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh. The Watchtower has some of their dates wrong... |
|
| | | lizzy | Mar 1, 2007 2:35pm | The watchtower is only a guied..it gives so many references to the scriptures and is easy to use..if you give me a link to another bible quote that differs from mine we could compare them. Id rather study the bible than wikipedia..not that wiki doesnt have some good and interesting articles..
The article on the trinity explains that people were debating this question
before it was made doctrine.
when JW`s produced the New World Translations they bypassed the greek scriptures and translated directly from hebrew..they used many reputable historians and languists and have got it just about as accurate as they possibly could..word for word..the Greeks wanted the old testiment to be brought up to flow in an understandable format that fitted in with the greek language..there were some letters and sounds that they could not easily translate..so they would use what they thought to be its greek equiverlant..this sometimes tied in with their mythological beliefs. |
|
|
Sponsor | | Ewtn2000 | Mar 1, 2007 6:29pm | Well just doing a quick search I found those inconsistencies which makes me wonder on their entire translation. I even spent time reading the ante-Nicene Church Fathers quotes in their attempt to prove that the early church didn't believe in the Trinity. Yet. I read what the Watchtower says the early Church Fathers wrote and then I went to the entire writings from the Church fathers and found that the Watchtower has carefully selected lines from their writings to prove their point. Yet if you or anyone goes to the entire writings, you will find the contrary. The only conclusion I can come to is the the Watchtower ommitted the full writings in a purposeful attempt to misguide people. I might let it go as accidental, but if I could find their common mistakes in less then 2 hours of reading, I would believe they could too. So I believe there is no other reason for this misinformation. If you read the collection of Aristides, Justin Martyr, Tatian the Syrian or Irenaeus (to name a few), you will truly see that the Church ALWAYS believed that Jesus was God and in the Trinity. Go to the nearest book store and get a copy of their writings, or better yet, buy a copy of their writings on CD and read them on your PC.
I gave you an example of one of those writings from Ignatius of Antioch in 110 AD. I have read and have a copy of the collection of the Early Church Fathers and I can, without a doubt, say they knew the doctrine well and believed in Jesus being Lord, God and saviour, being the second person of the Trinity. In fact, some of the very first apologetic defenses of the Trinity were written by these same Church Fathers.
"First, whenever the Watchtower finds evidence in the Fathers suggesting that Jesus is inferior or subordinate to God, they take this as proof that Jesus is therefore not coequal with the Father. On the surface, this conclusion seems appropriate - after all, how can one be inferior to another and yet be equal to him? But let's rephrase the question properly - how can one equal be inferior to another? Answer: Easily! Consider the common, everyday relationship between employer and employee. Both are human beings, so employer and employee are equal in respect to their basic nature. However, the employee is under the authority of the employer, which makes the employee inferior to the employer by way of position. This same distinction exists within the Godhead: The three persons of the Godhead are equal according to nature, but when it comes to position, God the Father is superior to God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
So, it must be understood when reading the Fathers that whenever the Church Fathers refer to Jesus as being inferior or subordinate to God, they are speaking in terms of position only, not of nature. This squares just fine with the doctrine of the Trinity, which only maintains that God the Father and Jesus are equal in nature.
Second, whenever the Watchtower finds a Church Father speaking of Jesus as a "creature," the Watchtower immediately claims such a reference as a proof text for Jesus' being a created entity rather than an eternal person of the Godhead. Likewise, there are some rare instances, such as the quote from Origen about the Father and Son's being "two substances" or "two essences," in which the Fathers seem to clearly indicate a created nature for Jesus rather than a full sharing in the eternal, uncreated substance of the Godhead. In these cases I must remind the reader that the Council of Nicea, in which Christendom made its definitive stand against Arianism, was still 100 to 200 years away at the time of the Fathers' writings. Consequently, the language of the Fathers was not always primed for battle against the claims of Arianism, for Arianism had yet to make the scene. In those days, the prevalent heresies dealt more with the issue of whether Christ was truly man, not whether he was truly God, and thus the language of the Fathers can get a bit "loose" at times concerning the deity of Christ. This is why the quotes of the Fathers must be taken in context with the whole of their writings, lest we take a couple of choice quotes from one particular missal here or there and mistakenly base our whole conception of a particular Father's views on that one unfortunate selection. --Michael J. Partyka
I would suggest reading the writings of Polycarp or Irenaeus. Polycarp was a direct disciple of John. Please good a buy the writtings and read them in their entirety. |
| |
| |
Bible Studies → Discussion